# Interview with Archie Shepp: Cover versions were rather unpopular among musicians … Photos, Videos

- Link: https://jazzblues.eu/2024/08/15/archieshepp/
- Published: 2024-08-15T00:06:56+01:00
- Author: https://JazzBlues.EU

**Archie Shepp was a close friend and intensively supported companion of the style-
defining saxophonist John Coltrane and is now considered an icon of free jazz himself.
In a celebrated world premiere in which another member of Coltrane’s band, Reggie
Workman, who will soon be 80, could be heard. This evening was not the only impressive
proof: hardly anyone is better suited to keep Coltrane’s legacy alive on stage with
such credibility than Archie Shepp.**

Shepp was not only involved in the recording of the two most important Coltrane 
records, “A Love Supreme” and “Ascension”. His solo debut “Four For Trane”, now 
a classic in its own right, contains four outstanding arrangements of Coltrane compositions.
Shepp is also, alongside Yusef Lateef, who died in 2013, one of the outstanding 
intellectuals of the black community of the past 50 years. As an activist, musician
and long-time professor of Afro-American studies, he has played a key role in shaping
generations of jazz musicians, especially black ones. The impressive breadth of 
his horizons is not only evident in his music, but also in a no less inspiring conversation
in which he effortlessly covers everything from major world politics to John Coltrane’s
socks.

![Happy Birthday to Archie Shepp, who turned 83 today. - Jazz](https://encrypted-
tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7rcUIgz8f5k8R05pTrS5E6I60OqvqQHYiHM0JLHGW4DFuNqaH)

**If I may say so: You seem to me to be more and more relaxed in recent years, even
though the social situation in your home country, the USA, seems to be getting worse
for the black community and you have fought numerous invisible, frustrating battles,
especially in the area of ​​civil rights.**

**AS: –** The explanation is very simple: because my grandmother and my parents 
gave me respect for people. But also the sensitivity to particularly racially motivated
disrespect, to poverty, to ignorance. But if you can change anything for the better,
then the way to do it is definitely through a debate based on a fundamental respect
for people and humanity. But I admit that I often still find it very difficult to
hold back my anger and disappointment. My sense of justice is sometimes simply stronger.

![Image](https://i0.wp.com/enjoyjazz.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Archie_Shepp04-
e1702927262850.jpg?w=640&ssl=1)

**As a musician, but also as a professor of Afro-American studies, you have dealt
intensively with the conditions of human coexistence. In doing so, you have repeatedly
come across the general topic of education. Against this background, have you found
a solution for how we could prevent western societies in particular from drifting
apart or even breaking apart?**

**AS: –** That is a difficult topic. Just take the presidential elections in the
United States. The change to Obama was a huge step at the time. The white working
class in particular, but also parts of the white middle class, never accepted him.
He also failed to bind these people to him later on. It must even be said that the
racial divide within society has actually grown wider during Obama’s time in office.
To put it simply, hopes of investing money in new jobs for these disadvantaged people
were dashed. In fact, the Obama administration has invested it primarily in maintaining
the banking system.

Ultimately, none of it reached those who were already skeptical of him. In addition,
he has of course always had to govern against the Republican majority in Congress,
which has severely limited his scope for action. Even such obviously important innovations
as Obama Care have met with bitter resistance, especially on the right-wing political
fringes.

But Obama’s failure was primarily due to his job and education policies. A disastrous
spiral continued under Obama. In short: the poor got poorer, the rich got richer.
USA are more afraid of their own women than of black men.

**On the occasion of John Coltrane’s 90th birthday, they played a brilliant AII 
Star tribute concert in Germany at the Enjoy Jazz Festival. You knew Coltrane very
well. In contrast to him, the spiritual do-gooder, you are more of a socio-political
activist. Or did his spirituality also have a significant political aspect?**

**AS: –** Of course it did. Absolutely. You can’t separate the two at all. He came
from a very religious background and so turning to spirituality as an attitude was
a logical consequence for him. But as someone who came from the deepest American
South, he also experienced racism, rejection and hostility first hand.

Both experiences were always present in him, the social and political, but also 
the religious, the feeling of being part of a community, the divisibility of its
values. Both were condensed into his special kind of spirituality, also musically.
In a certain way, it freed him. He also trusted that the churches could be a good
place to initiate political and social change. And the church was really a driving
force in the civil rights movement.

![](https://i0.wp.com/jazzblues.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Archie-Shepp-e1512990064960.
jpg?resize=640%2C426&ssl=1)

**Among other things, you were part of the session band during the “A Love Supreme”
recordings, even though the tracks with you were not included on the original album
but were added later.**

**AS: –** Es war für jeden Musiker eine Herausforderung, mit Trane zu spielen. Weil
er unfassbar diszipliniert war. Seine Musik entstand nicht etwa aus dem Nichts. 
Seine Inspiration hatte eine Geschichte. Er hat dafür unfassbar intensiv geübt. 
Er hat wirklich um die Befreiung seines Sounds gekämpft, ihn seinem Leben abgerungen.
Er hatte einen enormen Respekt vor Leuten wie Ornette Coleman und Albert Ayler. 
Er schätzte die Freiheit, die in der Musik der beiden lag.

Und gerade bei Albert war da ja immer auch noch eine enorme Spiritualität in der
Musik. Das hat John sehr beeindruckt und ihm sicher auch eine Vorstellung davon 
gegeben, dass es für ihn möglich ist, eine Musik zu erschaffen, die ihn als Menschen
und Musiker, die ihn in seinem Streben nach Menschlichkeit und Freiheit wirklich
repräsentiert. Gerade als noch vergleichsweise junger Musiker war es für ihn deshalb
sehr wichtig zu sehen, mit welchen Mitteln andere ihren Klang erweitern, um sich
selbst in ihrer Musik zum Ausdruck zu bringen.

**Coltrane hat Ihnen dann ja quasi ihren ersten Plattenvertrag bei Impulse besorgt.
Das erste Album „Four For Trane“ wurde sofort recht erfolgreich.**

**AS: – **Did you know that before John recommended me to Bob Thiele [music producer
and director of Impulse], I had already played for him? Unfortunately, it turned
out that Thiele didn’t like my music very much! It was too free for him. When John
then pushed for me, Thiele asked if I could record an album of Coltrane compositions
for him first. I think he was very surprised that I agreed.

Because at that time, everyone wanted to record their own material. Cover versions
were rather unpopular among musicians in those days. But I had just arranged some
of John’s pieces for my band anyway, so it was a great fit. And then, right at the
start of the Coltrane recordings, Thiele changed his mind about my music. Suddenly
he thought everything was great, he was totally enthusiastic. He then called Trane
at home in Long Island directly from the studio in New Jersey and raved to him that
the recordings were terrific and that he absolutely had to listen to them. It was
already night and John, who was a very generous and helpful person all his life,
immediately set off and came to the studio. He was in such a hurry that he didn’t
even put on socks. The producer then came up with the idea of ​​calling the recording“
Four For Trane” because four of the five songs were by John. The fifth is mine. 
Thiele didn’t really like him, by the way. But John, who had arrived in the meantime,
said he really liked the song and that was enough to get it on the record in the
end! We then took the photo for the cover, which shows John and me. And if you’ve
always wondered why Trane is wearing shoes but no socks, now you know.

![](https://i0.wp.com/jazzblues.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/archie-shepp.jpg?resize
=640%2C495&ssl=1)

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